MSNBC "The Rachel Maddow Show"- Transcript: Interview with Todd Rutherford for More about the Confederate Flag Issue

Interview

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MADDOW: When they get firm in his head, he`ll let us know.

But after all this happened, the Democrats were so freaking mortified

that the Republicans in Congress wanted to spend the day putting up

Confederate flags in national parks while South Carolina was voting to take

down their Confederate flag at their state capital, the Democrats after

this went down and John Boehner had to put this out, take it back, put it

out, take it back, after this all happened, the Democrats just decided they

were mortified by this whole thing and they were going to press the point.

The one black member of the congressional delegation from the great

state of Mississippi is Bennie Thompson. You see here -- Bennie Thompson

does not fly his state flag outside his state office in the capital. And

that`s because his state flag looks like this. Mississippi is the last

state in the country that has the Confederate battle flag emblem as part of

its state flag. Bennie Thompson doesn`t fly that flag, even though he`s a

Mississippi congressman.

And as Mississippi debates changing their flag this year in the wake

of the Charleston massacre, Congressman Bennie Thompson has proposed that

he doesn`t think the U.S. capital should fly that Mississippi flag either,

not as long as it has that battle emblem on it.

Democrats were so mad today about House Republicans trying to put back

up Confederate flags in national parks that Nancy Pelosi stood up and put

Bennie Thompson`s proposal about the Mississippi flag on the floor of the

House. She brought it up, didn`t tell anyone it was coming, she said let`s

vote on this now.

Oh, you guys like the Confederate flag? Really? Well, let`s do this

as a privilege resolution. Let`s vote on it now.

It goes right to the House. Let`s vote on it. Let`s see how many

Republicans vote to keep this Confederate flag flying.

John Boehner and other Republican House leadership freaked out. The

last thing they want is all the Republicans in the House going on record

with their vote in favor of or against the Confederate flag. That`s the

last thing they want in the world.

So, Republican House leadership freaked out and said, no, no, let`s

get rid of this thing. Don`t vote on what Nancy Pelosi has just put

forward there. Let`s not vote on this. Let`s send it to committee so it

can die in committee instead and we`ll never have to vote on it, and that

is when this happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAIRMAN: All those in favor say aye.

HOUSE: Aye!

CHAIRMAN: All those opposed, no.

HOUSE: No!

CHAIRMAN: Opinion of the chair, the ayes have it. The ayes have it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: His voice is breaking like Peter Brady in that episode. When

it is time on -- ayes have it.

The ayes have it. Send the Confederate flag bill away so we never

have to vote on it. Danger, Will Robinson, danger.

So, it`s chaos in the Congress today, over the Confederate flag and

how inconvenient it is for everyone involved that it may well be a lot of

house Republicans quite like that flag and they don`t want anyone taking it

down. And so, you better not ask them directly because they might tell you

the truth.

And that day of chaos in Washington, D.C. happened simultaneously with

the state of South Carolina finishing up one of the more remarkable and

searing public conversations on this issue that we have seen in a very long

time -- Democrats and Republicans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. NEAL COLLINS (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I do support removing

this Confederate battle flag as much as I respect it. It`s time for our

state to use this opportunity to heal. This might be two terms in one for

me, my first and last. This is too important of an issue not to take a

stand.

So, should I have an opponent next year, I want them to be able to

have this clip, not use a no vote against me, but to use this clip one way

or the other that the flag should come down.

STATE REP. JOE NEAL (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: My family was taken here to

South Carolina. There were four brothers. That much we know. They were

purchased by a slave owner by the name of Neal.

We know that those four brothers never saw one another again. We know

that the children born on the plantations in Sumter and Richland and

Kershaw County, they were never able to have their children, because their

children were sold away from them.

I want you to understand that these are the kind of stories that exist

in our community. They are stories of pain and suffering that I ask you to

consider, as you ask me to consider grace on this issue.

When that flag stands out front, the entire African-American community

feels a pain. And that pain is intensified when things happen like

Charleston, when groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Conservative Citizens

Council and other groups use that flag as a banner and use it as an excuse

to hate and to kill and to burn and to bomb.

We talk about grace. Let`s give grace where grace needs to be. Not

just one way but for all of us. I know I need grace. I think you do, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: The debate has been going on like this all week in South

Carolina. This very raw, very intense, at times very personal debate went

on past midnight last night. A lot of Republicans spoke in favor of taking

the flag down talked candidly about the fact this might cost them their

jobs, they thought they might lose their seats over this and that`s OK with

them.

But the strategy of the Republican Confederate flag defenders, people

who want to keep the flag up, their strategy was to pile amendments on the

bill, to slow down, ultimately try to stop it. It was not clear until

very, very late whether or not that strategy would work.

But the dam mostly broke on that strategy late last night when one

Republican member of the House basically kicked through that dam herself

with absolutely raw emotion. We played this last night after it happened.

It got a lot of attention today.

But it is one of the remarkable things you`ll see in the legislature

ever. I mean, how she kept speaking coherently through this I do not know.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. JENNY HORNE (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I attended the funeral of

Senator Clementa Pinckney, and the people of Charleston deserve immediate

and swift removal of that flag from these grounds. We can save for another

day where this flag needs to go, where -- which flag needs to fly or where

it needs to fly or what museum it needs to be in. But the immediate issue

as far as I`m concerned as a member of the Charleston delegation, and

speaking on behalf of the people in Charleston, this flag offends my friend

Mia McLeod, my friend John King, my friend Reverend Neal.

I cannot believe that we do not have the heart in this body to do

something meaningful such as take a symbol of hate off these grounds on

Friday. And if any of you vote to amend, you are ensuring this flag will

fly beyond Friday. And for the widow of Senator Pinckney and his two young

daughters, that would be adding insult to injury. And I will not be a part

of it.

We need to follow the example of the Senate, remove this flag and do

it today, because this issue is not getting any better with age. Thank

you.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: And the debate did go on after that, but the amendments fell

away, and after midnight, the last block came down, last roadblock came

down Republican named Rick Quinn said he, too, would finally let go.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. RICK QUINN (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I don`t back down much. I

think most of you who know me a lot know that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: But he did and they had a moment of silence and they had the

vote and the Confederate flag will come down in South Carolina. And they

could not fit all the people they wanted to fit into the room today with

Governor Nikki Haley for the signing statement on that bill to take down

the Confederate flag.

But she signed it, it`s done. And 10:00 a.m. tomorrow, officers of

the South Carolina Highway Patrol will solemnly process out of the capital.

They will detach that flag from that pole, they will bring it down, they

will furl the flag and it will go into the museum that they have for

Confederate relics and military history on the South Carolina state

grounds.

They put that flag up at the state capital in South Carolina in 1961.

It hasn`t been flying since the civil war. They put it up in 1961. They

put it up months after a group of activists were jailed for their sit-in to

try to integrate an all white lunch counter in Rock Hill, South Carolina.

That flag put up in 1961. It was kept up thereafter as a rejection

for civil rights for black people in South Carolina in the 20th century.

Now, more than 50 years later, after the massacre in the Charleston church

22 days ago, a different nine, nine martyrs were thanked and credited with

pushing South Carolina through this change, too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: With that, I`m proud to say the

bill has been signed. I do want to also acknowledge these nine pens are

going to each of the nine families of the Emanuel Nine.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: Flag comes down at 10:00 a.m. tomorrow.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HALEY: Now, this is about our children. When they go back and look

in the history books, while we`re still grieving, and the grieving is going

to last for a long time, when the emotions start to fade, the history of

the actions that took place by everyone in South Carolina to get us to this

moment is one that we can all be proud of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MADDOW: The emotions will fade but history will stand. South

Carolina Governor Nikki Haley speaking in her office the signing ceremony

for the bill that will take down the flag from the state capitol grounds in

her state. That flag will come down at 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time tomorrow.

Joining us now is Todd Rutherford. He`s the top Democrat in the South

Carolina House, the minority leader.

Representative Rutherford, congratulations. I know you`ve been

working this day for a very long time.

STATE REP. TODD RUTHERFORD (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you so much,

Rachel. What a day, what an hour. At 10:00 tomorrow, it`s all over and I

can`t believe it`s here.

MADDOW: Can I just ask you how it feels to have finally happened? I

know -- I`m interested in your analysis of how it happened and what happens

next and what it means. But how does it -- how does it feel? I mea, this

fight has been going on for decades in your state.

RUTHERFORD: It feels unbelievable. One of the things we`re standing

there watching Representative Jenny Horne, a hero in my book, and Neal

Collins, a freshman who got up there and made it clear, I don`t want you to

think that I shied away from this, I`m going to vote to take this flag

down. Representative Doug Brannon who said from the beginning he was going

to do that. Gary Clary, these Republicans and Democrats that sat on their

hands and sacrificed us hearing their voices tonight because they didn`t

want to ruin the flag coming down just because they wanted to have their

say.

There`s so many heroes out there tonight. I`m so proud to be a part

of this history. But not only that, to sit here in South Carolina and know

that our future is so much brighter than our past. That`s what we said

last night. That`s what we`ll say tomorrow morning at 10:00.

MADDOW: Did -- do you feel like what you and your colleagues just

went through, colleagues Democrat and Republican, do you feel like you

learned anything in this process in South Carolina that might speak to

other Southern states who are grappling with this same kind of issue in the

days ahead. Obviously, Mississippi is thinking about its own flag, there

are other states that have similar issues.

Do you feel like in South Carolina that you`ve learned something here

other people should take heed of as they embark on these kinds of debates?

RUTHERFORD: You know, it was interesting last night to watch

Republicans like Mike Pitts talk about the flag and how it represented

history and how it represented heritage, and they went on for hours. We

counted almost until about 8:00 the first Republican that talked about the

Charleston Nine was Representative Jenny Horne. Prior to that not a single

Republican so worried about the history and heritage of that flag said

anything about the nine that had been massacred including our colleague.

What we learned is that we still have a long way to go. What we

learned is they continue to address their own Republican colleagues begging

them to please see it their way and vote to keep the flag up. They never

bothered to look our direction and say -- guys, please tell me this flag

does not offend you. Please tell me there`s another way to do it.

It didn`t happen. That`s why the flag has to go. Another relic in

Mississippi and other Southern states, need to go as well.

MADDOW: South Carolina House Minority Leader Todd Rutherford, I want

to say, just one last very important piece of business -- I understand that

it is your mother`s birthday tonight on this day of all days, and this ate

into your time for your mother`s birthday dinner for which I am both very

appreciative and sorry. Please give her best birthday greetings from me

and everybody here.

RUTHERFORD: I have. Thank you so much, Rachel.

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